Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (00:02.029) Hello and welcome to season four of the Theo Therapist podcast. I am Dr. Ca Trice Glenn and I'm so happy that you are joining us today on this episode of the podcast. Another great topic, another great guest. I do want to give you a heads up though. The information is shared on this podcast is intended for information only. It is not intended to be a substitute for mental health counseling or professional help. We do encourage you to always get professional help so that you can navigate the challenges that you're facing in life. Make sure that you like, subscribe, and follow us on all platforms. We definitely want to make sure that you know when we're releasing new information. And we have some special treats coming up this season where we're going to release kind of some special clips and some behind the scenes BTS information. So make sure that you sign up and you are following us on all platforms. Today we've got a great topic. This is one that I think so many people have side conversations about at the house, but we're gonna kind of bring it to the forefront. Our guest today is Dr. Dawn Brumfield, and she's gonna come and she's gonna share a wealth of information with us. But the topic for today is family systems in the church, how narrative therapy fits into community care. And for those of you who are like, hmm. I'm not quite sure what all that means. Let's just try to break it down a little bit. The real question that we're asking today is why church family drama happens and how can we heal from it? That's the real question, right? So I'm glad that you all are here today. Thank you for coming Reverend Dr. Broomfield. How are you today? Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (01:45.31) I am doing good. Can you, you can hear me right? Cause it's saying it's trying to reconnect. Okay. Gotcha. I am doing well. Thank you for asking. Is it okay for me say a little bit about myself? Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (01:50.069) I can't. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (02:00.124) Absolutely, I was gonna share a little bit of your bio, but you definitely share anything that you'd like to bring to the forefront. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (02:05.834) Okay, actually the bio probably is a little bit more polished, so you can take it away with that and then I'll add in the gaps. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (02:14.485) Awesome. So from what I have from this great extensive bio is that Dr. Broomfield, she is a clinical psychotherapist, an ordained pastor, and a mental health advocate. She spent her life working and sitting at the intersection of faith, healing, and justice, similar to myself. So you already know I feel like a kindred spirit here. She's a highly respected leader in both sacred and secular spaces. And she brings over two decades of experiences supporting individuals and communities navigating trauma, identity, and mental wellness. And that's just a snippet of who she is. I know that, you know, we might have had some intersection point at some of our graduate work, but Dr. Broomfield, tell us a little bit more about yourself. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (03:02.178) Thank you so much and thank you for that wonderful introduction. So I do come to this work at the intersection of just my own personal experience and lived experience with mental health and mental illness. I have been in full-time ministry or adjacent to it since I was 17 years old. And I come from a family of pastors and leaders. So I have... been saturated with the church. And that means, as you said, the dinner conversations, all of the personalities of the church. And so when I realized that I wanted to expand what I do believe is ministry work, I went back to school to get my counseling degree and did my doctoral work in family systems specifically and in pastoral care. So those... Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (03:36.46) personalities. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (03:56.364) to intersect for me just in ways that continue to be life-giving and just real talk, life-depleting. And so I'll talk a little bit more about that, I'm sure, as we get into the conversation. But I'm married, have three adult children, love what I do, no longer practicing clinically simply because I got worn out, burnt out, whatever language you want to use. But now... as a mental health advocate and I serve as a director of a mental health program at a local nonprofit here in Chicago. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (04:39.546) Well, that's still a very full, full ministry. You might have taken one string out, but it sounds like you still have a full hand of things that you are attached to. But I love that you, in all of your areas, they're all at this intersection point. That there is a space for congregational life. There is a space for understanding clinically what's happening in reflection of congregational life. And then obviously there's the theological kind of reflection. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (04:41.761) Yes, we did. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (04:55.543) Mm-hmm. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (05:08.494) All of those kind of that braided rope, I think, enrich who we are as clinicians because we don't simply look at everything through one lens. We're not just looking at, I'm going to diagnose you with this kind of medical model and that's how I'm going to look at the world. We're also looking theologically, like what does this mean, meaning making for you and your sense of understanding who you are, what greater other and greater others that exist. And so, Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (05:13.208) Mm-hmm. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (05:37.684) I'm curious for you, how do you see this interaction happening? Like, how did it start for you to decide, I think I want to study more and learn more at this intersection of theology and clinical work? Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (05:52.46) Yeah, I love that question. So where it started, I think would be what I've already named, which is at the dinner table, conversations with my parents who were faith leaders, church leaders, listening to my grandparents who was a bishop and a pastor, listening to all of the parking lot conversations or the dinner talk. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (06:17.44) Why there's so much ministry that happens in the parking lot? Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (06:20.724) And so just listening to some of the conversations, but more listening to the personalities that they were naming. And the funny part to me is they would never have to tell me who Sister Jenkins was because I knew who Sister Jenkins was just based on, I hope I don't know anybody named Sister Jenkins because they surely gonna come back and give me. Okay. Okay. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (06:39.467) story. Well, at our church it's Sister Roundtree, so don't worry. You can use Sister Roundtree. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (06:47.646) Okay, Sister Roundtree, if I didn't know who Sister Roundtree was, I knew who she was based on how they described her. So I think it's really important, if you know anything about family dynamics, and most of us know it kind of peripherally, so right, like we'll say, that's the family scapegoat, or she's the one in the family that everybody goes to or the the hero or yeah, the strong one, the one who never cries, the one who gives all the great advice. And so the more I started listening to those conversations, the more I was like, there is something here about how we function around this Thanksgiving table and how the folks at the church house, how they function around the pulpit or in the Sunday school classroom. And so Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (07:17.198) strong. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (07:45.906) Just seeing that there was definite synergy between those two things. When I went back to get my graduate or do my graduate work in counseling, when they asked the question, what do you want to study more of? I said, I definitely want to study congregations as a family system. And so here we are. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (08:09.378) You know, and as I said, we're kindred spirit in so many ways. A part of my work was in identity formation and understanding spiritual identity development, but it was through the lens of kind of family systems. A lot of my work looked at childhood trauma and how that informed our spiritual identity development, kind of how they interplayed. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (08:20.523) Okay. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (08:27.746) Mm-hmm. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (08:28.558) But it always, the family, it always comes back to the family system and the family of origin. it influences so much our meaning making. Kind of like if you see how your family operates and then you see how your family operates in church context or in faith context, you, without any assistance, are trying to make meaning of all of that and try to integrate that. And it's gonna affect how you respond in the world. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (08:37.578) Uh-huh. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (08:43.736) Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (08:49.762) What does this mean? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, and this is, you know, my parents will still call me or my parents' friends or my friends will still call me and say, you know, I'm having this issue with this because I have a lot of clergy friends, obviously. I have a lot of associates and they'll say, you know, I'm really trying to understand this person. And if I know their familial context, then I can say, you know how that family member does this thing. That's the same thing that System Roundtree is doing. And so when you can make the connection for folks, I think it's a little bit easier to understand. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (09:33.773) And know, having worked as a director of counseling centers for churches for a decade, two different churches, one AME and one a Baptist church. So you might imagine, you know, I felt a little bit like the retriever of Nicodemus. People came to see me like a thief in the night. But when they came, usually it was because of some type of interpersonal conflict within the church. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (09:39.33) Mmm. Mmm. yes. Wow! Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (09:57.452) Lord, her mercy. Conflict. Absolutely. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (10:01.974) Right. And it happens. that emerges from our families of origin and how we have learned to interpret and have transference, account transference with the different people who are around us. And I'm usually the person that someone kind of just like you comes to and goes, hey, this thing is happening and I don't understand where this person is coming from or I have this person in the ministry and they are creating havoc or there is chaos. And so then we've got to open that. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (10:06.476) Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (10:19.823) This thing? Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (10:31.554) Mm. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (10:31.564) and go, what is it that feels chaotic about this person's presence and how are different people interacting with this person based on their own experience? And so we begin to open all that up. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (10:34.156) I'm here. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (10:40.408) Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's, I think that that's, yeah, that's a really good, a really good salient point, I think, is that folks are asking the question, but oftentimes, particularly as pastoral leaders, we, and I say the collective we, because I happen to be trained. in how to answer those questions or at least discern with the person. But most clergy are not trained in family systems. Most clergy are not trained in personal identity and all of those things. And so I think that this is a wonderful intersection because it really allows for the parishioner or the congregant to have some assistance. or discernment partner in doing the work and trying to make that meaning. I also serve as a pastor now at a new congregation. just prior to getting on this call, I received a text message and I'm like, it's a good thing I'm getting ready to have this conversation. One, because it probably. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (11:57.231) Ding ding ding ding ding. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (12:02.456) I'll probably preserve them from some of my vitriol, but also because it put me in the mind frame ready to have this conversation. So. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (12:13.133) It brought all these memories back to the forefront. Okay, let's look at it from this angle today, right? And that kind of leads us to what we have as a guiding question today, which is, where do family systems roles? And we mentioned a few earlier, kind of like the hero, the scapegoat, the lost child, where do these family system roles show up in congregational life? I immediate question comes to... Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (12:15.697) Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (12:30.754) Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (12:38.336) Okay. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (12:41.645) Well, a scenario comes to mind of someone who was clergy, called to minister, but every ministry that she found herself in, there was a trail of chaos. Somehow, everyone found issue with her. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (12:43.595) Okay. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (13:01.323) and kind of her bluntness, her directness, that kind of thing. And so she became the scapegoat in each of these ministries for what was ailing the ministries until finally she ended up in the children's ministry. And kids love everybody. they'll tell you the truth, but that was really a good home for her. But I thought about the hurt I think that she felt at being so isolated. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (13:06.889) Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (13:10.712) Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (13:17.397) Everybody but Okay, well, bless your family and home. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (13:31.201) in the other spaces she tried to be a part of with the adults. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (13:34.849) Okay, so you already named scapegoat and I think that that's a wonderful naming for said person. The scapegoat is often the person that's, you know, speaking their minds at the meetings. They are the ones who, you know, raise Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (13:55.001) Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (14:00.393) issues with some of the ways the church is functioning. They are the ones at the council meeting who is like, well, why do we do this and why do we do that? They are going to be named as, well, they will be identified as the scapegoat. Again, the congregation is probably not gonna have the language, but me as a clinician doing this work, I can say, this is definitely the scapegoat of... Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (14:21.239) Right. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (14:29.438) of the congregation. I would also maybe look at this person like the lost child. So you mentioned that, you know, she kind of was exiled to or designated to the children's ministry. And so I'm thinking that, you know, oftentimes in our family systems, the one who kind of quietly slips away. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (14:46.607) It. It too. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (14:58.528) Right? Like they are isolated over on the East coast and everybody else is South. Right? And nobody, barely do we ever hear from the one that's on the East coast and nobody's asking. And that's the part to me that is more troubling to my soul, as they would say, because nobody's asking about that lost child. Everybody is focused on the hero. the indispensable congregant, the one that is showing up at all of the meetings, the one who is picking up all of the communion elements and doing all of the things right. So the family's focused on the hero, the lost child is somewhere or the lost congregant is somewhere, exiled and isolated, and the scapegoat is the one who gets blamed for everything. That's very much, those are the ones that I see most often in congregations. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (15:53.465) Right. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (15:58.361) Yeah, there probably are others that I could name, but maybe they'll come to me because I think the hero could be kind of like the caretaker. So it just depends. But I think those three are good ones to start with. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (15:58.594) Mm-hmm. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (16:17.167) I think those three are probably the ones that are most highlighted is because we can clearly see them in the church congregation, right? So for those who serve in Congregational ministry, you know that there's a church within the church. Like whoever shows up on Sunday morning is not necessarily who you see during the week, right? Who you see during the week, that's the church within the church. It is the people who... Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (16:23.967) Absolutely. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (16:30.017) Yes. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (16:34.526) Exactly. That's the church with the military. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (16:38.959) come to the Bible studies who actually show up at the events, who help plan the events, who are always kind of present. They're in the intercessory ministry or they go out to take care of the sick and shut in. They are the church folks that are active inside the church ministry. And what happens though is in that little family system, it starts to mirror and function like a family system that you came from originally. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (16:43.032) Hello. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (17:05.069) Yes. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (17:06.197) Imagine if you got 10 heroes in one ministry because everybody was a hero in their family and now we've all kind of coming here together. Now we're fighting for dominance. We are territorial. We are searching for spotlight, right? Or likewise, if you've got a collective of scapegoats, then it turns into a real interesting party. People who have been put in that scapegoat blame role. And sometimes kindred spirits line up and they're like, well, look, if you're the bad guy and I'm the bad guy, let's hang out together. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (17:09.88) Mm-hmm. Mm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (17:16.054) indomitable. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (17:24.408) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (17:36.181) let's be bad together. Let's set it off. And I'm just talking about kind of in the life of the church and it happens because it replicates what we have encountered typically within the family systems that we had originally. Don't name it like that in the church congregation. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (17:36.559) Hahahaha Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (17:46.904) Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (17:52.393) Originally. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think to your point, I'm thinking particularly about when you got a room full of heroes, too many cooks in the kitchen, everybody's trying to say, do my menu. It really, it really, really can stunt the growth, the spiritual growth, the people growth, all the growth. It really can. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (18:06.55) Absolutely. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (18:21.916) stunt the growth of the church. yeah, wow. just, sometimes I marvel. Yes, because I marvel when we have these kinds of conversations because I'm like, why is everybody not wanting to study this? Like, this is so fascinating to me when I think about just how we function in family or how we dysfunction in family. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (18:28.655) The visual, Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (18:51.48) and how people can so quickly say we are the family of God, and particularly in Christian context, and not see the parallels between, like we literally call ourselves the family of God. So why, and we call each other brother and sister or my sibling in Christ, why wouldn't this operate the same way? So. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (19:17.999) Why wouldn't we be more curious about how we can make this a healthier family than the one we may have come from at the house? Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (19:22.132) a healthier family. Yes. Yes. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (19:25.047) right? Because we know that our families have certain areas where they're not healthy, we'll just say that. And then what we're not necessarily paying attention to is coming into a church community and trying to replicate that. Because oftentimes we're not, it may not be in our awareness that we're replicating that, but we are. We're trying to recreate something that feels normal to us, something that feels familiar. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (19:41.718) Yes. Yeah. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (19:47.113) normal, what feels familiar and normal. And I remember though, is obviously not his original saying, but my dad saying things to me like, if you have a problem everywhere you go, the only one that is the common denominator is you. So if every place you go, there is chaos, there is something going on with you that is a tad bit chaotic. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (20:02.703) I'm a denominator language boy. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (20:14.432) I don't know, it seems like simple math to me, but... Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (20:17.369) Somehow chaos has normalized in your relationships. So we might want to look at that. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (20:20.968) Yes. And the curiosity, I think, is what, when I think about narrative therapy and I think about this idea of the problem is the problem. It's not the person. So, you know, saying, well, Sister Roundtree is just divisive. Well, she may be a little divisive, but let's have a larger conversation about like, how is conflict showing up? Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (20:36.334) Ryan. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (20:50.384) in our congregation. There is something happening in the ethos if Sister Roundtree is divisive in every community meeting or every congregational meeting, we need to be looking at the larger system and not just looking at Sister Roundtree. And I think that when you can like externalize, that's what we know about narrative therapy, right? It's like the coming out. of side of the person, when you can externalize it, then you kind of go from this blaming state to a state of curiosity. So I am curious about why you are feeling burned out. What is the narrative that we tell about exhaustion in this particular community? Because if you're feeling it, Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (21:31.637) Absolutely. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (21:46.775) you can best believe that other folks are feeling it too. And because that's how the system works. What's the transference between the family members. If you're burned out, guess what? You ain't the only one. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (21:59.791) There are others. I heard an interesting clip and I always forget his name. It's a guy that's on Instagram and he's a pastor. And his clip today, and of course there was a lot of vitriol in the comment section, but he said, if you want to understand whether you're in a spiritually abusive system, tell them you need a break. You need a sabbatical. 30 days where you just need to go and replenish and be with the Lord. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (22:25.944) Mmm. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (22:26.063) And if they tell you that you don't need that because you need to be with them or you're not allowed to leave the system for some reason, you have become enmeshed in something that is kind of taking the place of who God is. And that just kind of speaks to me about recognizing that sometimes the person who's willing to show something or bring something to light in the midst of the family, that person gets seen as the problem child. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (22:33.432) Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (22:40.022) Hmm. No, no. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (22:49.816) Mm. Mm-hmm. as the problem. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (22:54.755) when really all they did was bring the message forward. They identified the elephant in the room, the thing that exists. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (22:57.922) Yeah. Mm-hmm. They named the thing and called a thing a thing. And I think something that you named about the awareness, I can't remember exactly what you said, but it's understandable that not everybody in the family is gonna notice these things, right? But when you have the... the person who the prophet if you will who is going to show the thing, then I think that that awareness can usher us into the curiosity, right? Like, but we're not conditioned that way. We are conditioned that if somebody points something out, we are conditioned to become defensive because that's what we as humans do, right? We become defensive. Yes, in the family. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (23:59.107) But that's the family system too, right? You're supposed to keep family business in the family. You don't talk about issues. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (24:06.188) You don't talk about that. And so the fact that not only did you talk about it, but you talked about it within the community context, that's a no-no. And you ought not be doing that. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (24:19.599) So instead of harrowing the person who brought light into darkness, we shun them, we shut them down, we demonize them because you have brought something forward that we're not addressing. We as a community don't plan to address that. And even if we had looked at it in our own personal lives, we don't plan to voice it and articulate it so that something has to be done with it. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (24:25.368) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (24:39.83) Right, right. And so then that's when you, you know, when you talk about the eight concepts of the Bowen family systems theory, when you, when you talk about cutoff, right? Like when you say like bringing it to light. And so we're going to shun that person. We're not going to talk to them anymore. In the congregation, it might look like them leaving. Sometimes in a congregation, it looks like Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (24:52.601) Right. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (25:05.154) for some leaders being called out and then shunned from the community. Cause I, a pastor is coming to mind right now who uses the pulpit as kind of like a whipping pole or something. And it saddens me because I can see very clearly this is the problem child that y'all have named. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (25:20.793) weapon. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (25:32.92) And this person has done nothing but brought to light the sickness of the system. It's really mesmerizing to me. Yeah. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (25:47.449) I've also worked with some people who have been in some systems that function cult-like, where it's kind of the authoritative figure, authoritarian figure. Their word is the only word that matters. And in those systems, they demand loyalty. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (25:53.368) and Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (25:57.443) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (26:03.01) Mm-hmm. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (26:04.239) and as a unhealthy system that has one person's voice that is powerful above all others, then that kind of leads us into these spaces where the family system's traps comes in, like, triangulating. Because now we're vying for attention, or we're vying to be validated by the senior voice. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (26:17.624) Mmm, triangling. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (26:23.32) Mm-hmm. That, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (26:27.083) And all of this is family systems. And most of us in our church congregations, when we're sitting in the pews, we're not thinking about this in a family systems dynamic, but that's what's still happening. It's these little power traps. Like, why do you have an issue with Sister Roundtree? Because he called her name from the pulpit this week, and he didn't call your name from the pulpit this week, right? So now you have ought with Sister Roundtree when really you have ought with him because you felt like, you know. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (26:40.684) Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (26:44.632) Uh huh. Uh huh. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (26:51.584) with him. Exactly. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (26:53.615) like he wasn't recognizing you for your great service to the Lord, know, that kind of thing. But all of this is, it's undercurrent, but it is, as you say, I'm always wondering why more people aren't curious about what's really going on here, what's really happening, and how can we avoid some of these family system traps. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (27:06.109) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (27:14.006) I wish I had an answer. I just, I can write a book. I can write a book. And as a pastoring person myself, right now, I'm just, sitting here and I'm, faces are coming to mind and situations are coming to mind and stories are coming to mind. And I'm even sitting here holding my own self accountable. I always tell people, Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (27:18.351) You should write a book about it. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (27:31.907) Mm-hmm. Stories. Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (27:43.307) My staff, laugh when they hear me say it, but I always say I'm a much better teacher than I am a practitioner because sometimes I fall into those traps myself, right? Like why, why when this person came to me with this issue, why was I not curious? And instead I reacted versus responding. And so, One of the ways that I think also you talk about the system traps, one of the other ways I think to avoid some of those traps is differentiation, right? Like, and I say this, this is why I said I'm a much better teacher than I am a practitioner. I can speak all day about differentiation, right? But I'm also an empath. And so I know... that I absorb energy that is in the space. And so what I think needs to happen is learning how to know where they end and you begin, knowing, you know, what is the stopping point? I'll give you a short example. In our community, we have prayer time and folks stand up and they say their Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (28:39.407) voice arena. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (29:06.2) prayer requests, their joys and their concerns and their celebrations. And as the pastor, I have made it a practice to repeat back what I'm saying, or I'm saying repeat back what the congregant has offered as their prayer concern or their prayer request. What I realized just two weeks ago is that I'm actually using that time to ground myself. Because when I hear it, I begin to absorb it and I take on that person's joy and or concern as my own. And so giving that little bit of space, I know that's not a traditional way of grounding, but giving that little bit of space to myself to repeat back out into the community what has been said. has helped me to not absorb all of that energy. And so it's a new thing for me, but definitely one that I'm gonna hold on to. It's a practice that I really wasn't aware was happening and that I have kind of purposefully and purposefully integrated into my role as pastor. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (30:32.617) the twofold benefits of that because it also affirms that the prayer has been heard, right? Like the person has heard it enough that they repeat it as said, meaning there is validity in what you're offering here. And then for your own personal, it gives you that breathing moment to just say, okay, let me get grounded in this space to pray for these things. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (30:37.996) heard. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (30:45.206) Yes. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (30:50.09) Yes. Yes. Yes, for these things and these people. And sometimes I'll come out of my shoes so that I can feel the ground underneath me. It's a work in progress. So it's, like I said, a newer revelation and something that at least for the time being I'm gonna hold on to as a practice that I'll do. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (31:18.553) So don't they? That reminds me, I have a friend, don't know if you know her name, it's Bridget Hector. She was in the THD with me and she preaches barefoot. She said, you know, she sees that as her holy ground. And so when she does messages, preach barefoot. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (31:29.259) Yeah. Yeah, my pastor used to do that too. My home pastor is Dr. Frank Thomas and he does that or did that. And I did that in a period of my preaching until I felt released that the Holy ground is wherever I make it. And so, yeah, where I place my feet is that. I also think that Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (31:40.257) okay. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (31:54.169) where you place your feet. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (31:59.061) Another way to avoid the trap is to share leadership so that you don't have that dominant voice. In a lot of congregations, you do see one person who is kind of facilitating all of the things. They're facilitating the stuff in the front and they're getting the parking lot meetings. They are the chairperson of the parking lot meetings. And when that happens, You really see a lot, and I know we've been using this word often, but you see a lot of chaos. You see the impact of not having differentiation. You see that in the system. You see that in the congregation. In my doctoral program, what I eventually ended up writing, which now that I'm having this conversation with you, I know oftentimes, dissertations and theses and all that get turned into a book. And I just got an idea just sitting here right here in this conversation. So, I you for that. But anyway, I was just going to say the birthing room. but yeah, so when you can share leadership, when you can kind of diversify the voices, then I think it kind of Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (33:01.594) Write that down. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (33:07.053) the Burgess on the field there for this podcast. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (33:22.654) it won't eliminate, but maybe diminishes some of those trappings, right? So that folks can find themselves differentiated and learn what does it mean. I also think that having ritual, communal lament and communal celebration, I think those are some of the things that also Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (33:44.269) Yeah, yes. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (33:51.821) help to diminish some of those trappings because it reminds us that this is community. And I think sometimes we, I was just gonna say, I think sometimes we forget that the congregation is, the church is the church, the people make up the church and we are a community, no different than a family or no different than a neighborhood or what have you. We are a community and I think that needs to be remembered. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (34:00.121) That kind of... Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (34:22.351) So, so far, if you're keeping track, we've talked about some ways to try to help avoid some of these traps. We talked about the open curiosity. We've talked about differentiating. We've talked about ritual. We've also talked about, you know, kind of this communal care, this intentionality of caring for community. That kind of leads us to, I guess, our last topic is once you've been in these kind of family systems within a congregational setting, you know, what does healing look like? when there have been family conflicts, right? So in our families of origin, conflict comes up all the time, whether it's sibling drama, parent drama, you know, it's some type of conflict. And I often tell my clients, conflict in and of itself is not a bad thing, because conflict is not always confrontation. Conflict is difference. It's difference of opinion, difference of perspective, difference of viewpoint, but difference in and of itself is not a bad thing, kind of like the diversity that you spoke about a few minutes ago. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (34:52.416) Okay. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (34:58.444) than her. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (35:07.223) Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (35:20.492) Mm-hmm. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (35:22.147) diversity and difference of opinion and perspective is not bad, it is what do we do with that that matters? And if we've allowed that conflict to turn into a confrontation or turn into kind of triangulation or some other form of scapegoating, how do we come back and heal individually and congregationally? I think that's, we wanna kind of lean toward that as I guess our closing topic of the day. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (35:26.136) Right. Right. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (35:38.26) Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (35:43.426) Mm-hmm. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (35:49.401) I'm going to ask you your thoughts and then I'll jump back in as well. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (35:53.817) One of the things that I think community care looks like, let's see, you used a word. I can't remember the word you used, but I would say you can tell the truth, but I think it should be truth telling with some compassion. everything is not an accusation. And I think that on both sides, if I'm telling you a truth, it's my responsibility to tell that truth with as much compassion. as I'm able to or that I can bring myself to do. And if I am receiving a truth, it is my responsibility to really, really lean into not becoming defensive because I have heard a truth. It goes back to the conversation about curiosity. In my... relationship therapy with my own, relationship therapist. do a process or a process called I-I initiator and inquirer. And in this process, a person brings a conflict or tension, which is the initiator. What, what is happening for me? What is coming up for me? What is ailing me, whatever it is. And the inquirer, their only job, their only role is to ask questions for clarity, for understanding. They are not allowed to come back into the conversation with a defense. They can only ask questions of the initiator. Love that concept. Again, better teacher than I am a practitioner, but I love it because Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (37:59.743) It forces you to have to listen. And so that's the other thing when I talk about community care, truth telling with compassion and listening to one another and not just listening, but like listening to understand, right? Like listening to be able to say, this is what I experienced. I hear what you are experiencing, but this is my experience. and let's find where there's either synergy or conflict. Like you said, conflict is not a bad word. It's not, you know. And then two last things. The other one would be redefining the roles. So we talked earlier in the segment about the hero, the scapegoat, or the lost child, right? So for the lost child. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (38:52.205) in the last channel. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (38:56.12) going and getting that lost child. If I got to fly over to the East Coast to bring that child home, or if I have to go to the parking lot after Sister Roundtree done stomped out because she has had enough or has not been embraced, then go have that conversation. Send a text, send a voice memo, send an email, whatever it is to bring that person back into community. Same with the hero. Learn how to rest. As the family hero, I am still, still, still learning every day what does it mean for rest to be my resistance to being trapped in the hero role. And then the last thing is when folks are harmed, I believe in repair. So. I believe in ritual as repair. So how do we come together and create a new narrative? How do we come together and talk about what has hurt me so that I can name my truth, you can name your truth, and then we can rewrite a new narrative that is healing and repairs. These are some of the ways that I wish families would operate more in. But I definitely think that congregations can because there's a little bit more distance. Sometimes with families it's harder because you've got the history and Memaw and Aunt Jolene ain't ever got along from when Aunt Jolene came out of the womb. So yes, but when you're in a congregation you have a little bit more distance. And so I would offer to anybody try these as a leader, try some of these. communal healing kinds of things in your congregation. And I'm almost willing to put money, not that I'm a betting pastor, but I'm almost willing to put money on the fact that if you see some change in your community context, you'll see some change in your family context as well. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (41:13.365) Amen to that, because I believe you'll be more intentional, which kind of leads into the point I want to make. There was one story I want to share, while you were talking. I thought of kind of my one major incident of church hurt where I was young. I was in my 20s. I was that young leader who wanted to do absolutely everything and had a million ideas and 110 percent energy to do everything. And I ran up against another hero who saw me as a threat. And Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (41:25.59) Mm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (41:38.941) and Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (41:42.851) Needless to say, things got a little too dicey. And that person actually set me up. I got called into one of the infamous meetings where I was told that I did something that I did not do. And if you know anything about an African-American woman who has been cornered and my voice started to tremble, but I promise you I wasn't scared. It was the other side of the coin as I had to try to hold in and not. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (42:04.438) Mm-hmm. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (42:12.793) react in a way that I felt still would not be true to who I was. And when I left that meeting, I was so defeated. I was like, look, I'm out here. I'm just trying to do the right thing. I'm trying to be here for Jesus and blah, blah. And they're setting me up and they're lying on me. And they call me in this meeting and no one wanted to hear my side of the story. And no one wanted to believe me. All the hurt of being the scapegoat. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (42:16.876) Okay. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (42:30.082) Bye. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (42:37.729) in the moment and then I don't know to this day who it was but I went outside and I think I was just I must have just looked like I needed God in that moment and some church member came up and she just hugged me and she prayed for me. I don't know who she was I can't tell you to this day but whatever she saw on me God sent her to hug me and pray for me and I believe it is that prayer that kept me connected to church. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (42:47.128) Mm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (42:53.25) Hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (43:04.812) Wow. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (43:07.395) because I was so distraught that through no fault of my own, I was targeted. And I think once again, we have these systems and situations that happen that create conflict. The thing that I'm hoping that we do is that we remember to show grace, even when we don't understand the other person. Try to show some grace that they may not mean it maliciously, right? Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (43:19.596) Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (43:26.007) Yes. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (43:33.804) Yes. Yes. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (43:37.749) Even if it looks and feels and smells malicious, it still may not be malicious. It may be them replicating something in their family home. This is how we handle things at my family and this is how I handled it at church. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (43:45.89) their family. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (43:52.151) Yes. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (43:52.823) And so we have to be mindful of how we replicate patterns with others and also have the grace to think about whether somebody else is doing that same thing. You know, they always used to say that the bully either got bullied at home or the bully had something else going on at home and they didn't have another way to address it. And so they took it out on other people. Right. So sometimes it's that grace that matters first and then it's our intentionality. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (44:02.392) Yeah. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (44:11.252) Yes. Yes. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (44:19.137) Yes. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (44:19.255) about making sure that we are feeding God's spirit kind of back into us and not getting caught up in interpersonal drama. You can't escape it. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (44:28.0) And what I just wanted to add to that experience that you described resonates with me. But one of the things that comes out of it for me is I believe wholeheartedly that the things that are broken in community also are healed in community. And I do not think it's by accident that before you could get home, someone met you in the parking lot, a person of that community met you in the parking lot and in that moment, what was broken in that office had an opportunity to be healed. And I wholeheartedly believe that it made the difference. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (45:08.875) it made a difference. Absolutely. And that is the community still caring for itself, right? Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (45:15.752) Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. my God, this has been so amazing. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (45:22.511) It's rich. It's a rich conversation and we're just scratching the surface. almost hate to, you know, kind of draw us to a close. But this is a conversation that could go on and on and on because for those of us who are very active in the life of the church, you know, we're aware of kind of what this looks like on a day to day. You know, for those of us who are pastoring, but even if you're not pastoring, if you've been in any type of ministry leadership role in any capacity for any length of time, there's probably something today that resonated with the journey that you have. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (45:28.492) Yeah. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (45:35.704) Mm-hmm. Yes. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (45:46.592) Mm-hmm. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (45:51.349) Yeah. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (45:51.775) And I hope that the tips and the points and the things that we brought to the surface will bless you in your continued leadership of putting things in perspective, having that curiosity, you know, being intentional, finding ritual if you need it, grace if you need it, intentionality if you need it, differentiating. All those things will come to the forefront when the conflict comes up because it's not when, it's not if, it's when. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (46:17.046) Because it's coming. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (46:21.487) So that that will help you to kind of navigate it in ways that's going to be healthy for the whole community. As we prepare to kind of close and wrap up this this episode, I really want to thank Dr. Broomfield for being here. This was just a rich, rich conversation. And as I said, I almost hate to end it because it was so good. But I do want to offer you a space to tell us if there's anything you're working on or anything you want the people to kind of follow you on so they can connect with you. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (46:37.144) and Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (46:48.738) Sure, so I'm one of those old folks that's only on Facebook. I am there as D. Marie Brumfield. Folks have found me, so I must be doing something right. So anyway, Facebook, D. Marie Brumfield. I do have an Instagram. It's just not super active, and it's ReverendDMB, the number two. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (46:54.851) Ta ta ta. Dr. Dawnn M. Pirani Brumfield (47:14.616) And I am writing a book right now called Bearing Witness. And I feel like the more I say it out publicly, the more accountability I'll have around finishing the book. And so I am writing Bearing Witness that talks about some of this. It's kind of like part memoir, part teaching, you know, and some theology kind of sprinkled in there. So. I'm really excited about that project. yeah, just keep doing the work, healing the sick and raising the dead and doing all of the things that have been laid at my feet. Dr. Ca Trice Glenn (47:55.305) shey. Well, we thank you so much for being here today. Once again, thank you all for listening and tuning in to the Theotherapist podcast, where we have real talk at the intersection of theology and therapy. Please make sure that you like, follow and subscribe on all of our platforms. We're on everything and YouTube. We also have a website, thetheotherapist.com. So make sure you check us out there. We've added some blogs. We also have a recap of all the episodes as well as some quotes from each episode so make sure you visit our website as well. Thank you so much for being here, take care of yourselves, and be well.